What nonsense. Are you even trying?

Iraqi's don't hate us because we are spending money on mercenaries, we are spending money on mercenaries because Iraqis hate us.

'The authority initially estimated that security costs would eat up about 10 percent of the $18 billion in reconstruction money approved by Congress, said Capt. Bruce A. Cole of the Navy, a spokesman for the authority's program management office.'

The insurgents aren't demanding more reconstruction funds. Such a demand could easily be meet. They aren't blowing up infrastructure because they are upset that we aren't fixing the infrastructure fast enough.

The insurgents hate us because we are Mongolian, imperial, oil thieving, Jew agents using x-ray vision to see underneath the clothes of decent Iraqi women.

That is important stuff.

Trivializing the problem lends credence to the idea that trivial solutions are possible.

BigMacAttack- With such deep insight into the clinical insanity of Iraqi insurgents, it's not surprising how well our strategy is working.

The Shias were very supportive of the US overthrowing Saddam, yet the results were mass looting, mass unemployment, and unrepaired infrastructure-- and billions of dollars spent for US corporations with little ending up in the hands of average Iraqis.

If you don't think that would breed resentment, no wonder you have to assume that the Iraqis are a bunch of insane irrational people. For most folks, that's a pretty rational set of reasons to end up hating the US.

Just to add, in the ABC Iraq survey, most Iraqis say they want security first.
Look at this survey, it's kinda old but its still relevant.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/Iraq_anniversary_poll_040314.html

First priority

Regaining
public security 64%

Rebuilding
the infrastructure 7%

(hope this turns out clear..)

Nathan,

Define hate.

I was not talking about resentment. I was talking about hate.

Again with a little more detail.

The following is not a rational calculation -

I did not get a reconstruction job. Therefore I will kill US troops. Even though the risk is extreme.

On the other hand I will kill US troops because they are Mongolian, oil thieving, Jew agents is a very rational calculation.

Throw out the Jew agent bit and you have a statement many in the West more less agree with. Though only if it is phrased better.

This administration is heedless of international law and particularly savage. They are motivated not by democracy, however much they attempt to cloak their brutality by using such rhetoric, but by the desire for hegemony and the supply of oil.

Sadly that is a problematic point of view.

So, I guess for you, the difference between insanity and sanity is the Jew agent bit and fancy phrasing.

You labeled Iraqis insane. I repeated the beliefs of Iraqis.

Now it might be that a good many Iraqis Shias and others have and had a more neutral vision of Americans and US troops. I think that is and was the case. They hold such beliefs to a much lesser degree. Would a reconstruction persuade them to shoot their fellow citizens, perhaps cousins, who do hold and act on such beliefs in the head? Too risk being shot in the head by their fellow citizens, perhaps, cousins who do hold and act on such beliefs? I don’t think so. I don’t think such expectations are rational. (Especially since I feel other Iraqis hold such beliefs to a much lesser extent but hold them nonetheless. It is debatable if we are even Pak.) On the other hand, I do think that every cousin killed as collateral damage, when Americans attempt to shot those people who act on such beliefs, could create hatred.

Sure, every little bit tips the scale on way or the other. I just don’t think reconstruction jobs weighs in more than deep seated cultural prejudices. Or even close.

I don’t stop by all that often so I don’t know your position on the occupation. But from your statements you should support a more competent occupation. You should support a Kerry/UN occupation. If the cause of the hatred isn’t deep seated and cultural, if the hatred is merely a rational response to incompetence, instead being based on culture and/or the correct evaluation of the US as imperial thieves, if it is just a question of competence and the proper administration of carrots, changing the occupations administrators and not the occupation is the solution.

That was way too long and not long enough but it will have to do.

I don't think the Iraqis are insane-- that is how too many people characterize them.

And of course the Iraqis want security, but quoting a poll in the abstract misses the point. Everyone wants security until they want war, whereupon they throw security to the wind. The question is what pushes people to the point where they choose war over security.

The Iraqis aren't dumb. They see the US spending hundreds of billions on military and almost nothing on building the basic building blocks of democracy and economic recovery.

Ergo- the US doesn't respect democracy and does respect military power. So smart Iraqis will pursue violence to achieve their goals, since that is what the US respects. Smart Iraqis won't become social workers but militia members.

It's a bad cyvle for the US to encourage, but that's what we are doing.

Another point here is that private mercenaries may be order, but they're not law. They're playing the same role the Pinkertons did a century ago -- protecting a corporation's property in the absence (or with the complicity) of civil authority. Occasionally the corporation's property interest overlaps with the civil need for law and order, but if they diverge the mercenaries will always choose their boss's property -- it's their job. If the US really wanted even just law and order, they'd outlaw private mercenaries or strictly police their behavior. But Iraq is one of those situations when the "civil" authorities -- in this case, the US military -- is, I suspect, in league with the mercenaries (who are, after all, protecting the property of the very corporations whose allies started this war under false pretenses), so it's perfectly logical for the Iraqis to resent and hate the lot of them.

Nate Newman

The Shias were very supportive of the US overthrowing Saddam, yet the results were mass looting, mass unemployment, and unrepaired infrastructure-- and billions of dollars spent for US corporations with little ending up in the hands of average Iraqis.

Wait, so the Shia were supportive of overthrowing Saddam and then suddenly after that overthrow there was mass looting and unemployment and thus Nate tells us that this is the US's fault due to money "not going to the Iraqis"..... Where can you even start with a comment so "rich" and thick as that?
THUS -
1) The Shia would only support overthrowing Saddam if they were sure there would be a liberator that would immediately distribute billions to them afterwards! LOL!
2) They also stipulated that whoever sent an army and risked their lives to rid Saddam immediately have the entire pathetic state of the Iraqi infrastructure modernized and running at nearly full tilt in at least a year.
3) There was mass looting after the overthrow of a brutal dictator not bcs one would expect a degree of anarachy anywhere where the existing gov't is toppled - let alone in a country as ethnically and religiously divisive and oppressed as Iraq. No there was massive looting bcs the US liberator was suddenly discovered billions were going to corporations with expertise on repairing electric generators and Oil Refineries...
4) Nate implies there was massive looting and unrest simply because the Shia had predicated if the US was going to overthrow Saddam for them that they could only hire Iraqi firms (You know those massive amount of capable ones) to repair the massive decayed infrastructure of Iraq...

If you don't think that would breed resentment, no wonder you have to assume that the Iraqis are a bunch of insane irrational people.

Right because its not illogical to blow up UN workers at a compound. Well, actually it might if it were the Kurds getting back at the UN for still having 1 billion dollars earmarked for them in the UN Oil for Food Scam...
And its not illogical to blow up water main lines, electricity generators, Oil Pipelines etc... That all makes a lot of sense especially when Nate wants to imply to us that he really understands the logical mind of these "resistors"... It also makes sense when Iraqis believe conspiracies like Israel wants to settle a new state in the middle of Iraq, or that since everything in Iraq wasn't magically 500x better than it was under Saddam a year later the US is purposely dragging it out to stay... bcs after all the US can go to the moon, so they should be able rebuild Iraq in a year without much help from Iraqis.

And of course reading Nate's Nursery School simplisme you would have to assume that there are many divergent forces in Iraq that want power for themselves and are being backed by outside forces that want the US to fail anyway possible, Iran, Syria and ex-baathists, Al Queda.

For most folks, that's a pretty rational set of reasons to end up hating the US.

That is Nate Newman's inserted logic into a country he doesn't have a fin clue about, but implies he does. And as long as he can string together a pathetically set of simplistic set of circumstances to support his end goal going in.

Imagine that rebuilding a country like Iraq is going to be difficult and bumpy.
But Nate does indeed present an impressive case...., lol!

Mike

Mike- Let's see. The US bombs the hell out of Iraq and destroys its infrastructure.

Many Iraqis support the costs of war on the assumption that this destruction will be repaired.

When it is not repaired, suddenly the costs of war loom larger than the gains from overthrowing Saddam.

So support for the invasion drops, since the permanent costs are now larger, so the benefits of getting rid of Hussein are relatively less.

So I hope this basic cost-benefit analysis of how support for the US invasion could drop is understandable to you.

And again, if you don't understand why Iraqis would resent rich American corporations coming in getting rich based on their misery, you are missing some basic points of reality. That's not about reconstruction being hard and "bumpy", but about it being extremely profitable for some people at their expense.

Actually, the policy IS quite stupid.
Logically, a well-run, stable Iraq would be good for the region, and in the long run, therefore, for the United States which could trade with it and benefit in other ways from the success.
On the other hand, wasting vast amounts of money on overpriced U.S. "reconstruction" bids while alienating the political and military opposition (thus justifying wasting vast amounts of money on overpriced U.S. "security" companies) makes a lot for Bush and his corporate cronies, but only in the short term. In the long run you have a pissed-off population who will eventually want to take some kind of revenge.
It's a bit like supporting the Shah, although more calculated and less intelligent.

Let me get this straigh, Nathan...

We're concentrating too much on secruity in Iraq?

We're concentrating too much on secruity in Iraq?

Posted by Ricky at April 20, 2004 07:02 AM

If I may...

It seems to me that Nathan is saying that the Iraqis are upset because of failed promises by the Bush administration.

Why they would trust anyone named Bush after PapaDoc lied to them, repeatedly (especially the Kurds when Bush the Smarter let Saddam gas them with the WMD he supplied to Iraq), I cannot fathom.

But when BabyDoc comes along, makes more promises, then doesn't deliver, well - that tends to make people upset. Look at how much the Chimperor is despised in his own country for lying to us. And he's not even killing or unjustly imprisoning hordes of Americans, as we are doing (in his name) in Iraq.

Add onto that indiscriminate detention and murder of the locals by the occupying army. Then heap on a little harrassment of the native womenfolk and children. Top it all off with arrogance and condescension by Coalition troops.

Then we hire mercenaries (oops, excuse me, contractors) to do the job (with taxpayer money!). Instead of putting money into rebuilding all the crap we blew up.

And the junta makes even more money, while the rest of us pay higher taxes and more for necessities.

Nope, no reason for anyone to get upset about that...

The American people are victims of this Bush administration as well.
Psychological problems will get all those soldiers returning from Iraq. This will cause lots of divorcements with all the sadness involved. The ex-soldiers will loose their jobs because they cannot live in a normal work situation anymore. Their lifes will be a mess.
The Bush administration lied to all the American people in order to get an ok to start this war.
There were no bio-chemical weapons.
They were not working on an atomic bomb.
There was no Al-Quaida in Iraq.
Ok, now the Iraqis got rid on a dictator but instead of this dictator your soldiers are abusing and torturing Iraqi people in Saddams worst prisons.
Don't you see that America is ruled by the Jews?
Jews don't like America, they want America to do the dirty dangerous work for them. They want America to pay for all this shit.
You better take 3 jobs in stead of 2 because someone has to pay for this war, you!
The Germany, the France and the Russia were right...
Regards, Erik

You guys are ALL WRONG!!!!
Islamics love Americans. I personally watched exactly how they share their love for us on September 11, 2001. Way before Iraq and the problems there.
I watched both towers slam into Church Street after those nice Islamic fellows murdered Flight Attendants by slashing their throats on the planes that slammed into 1 & 2 WTC.

They really love us, they show it all the time. 2 weeks ago when they burned the bodies of Americans and dragged the parts in the street is a show of affection for Americans.

You guys are ALL WRONG!!!!
Islamics love Americans. I personally watched exactly how they share their love for us on September 11, 2001. Way before Iraq and the problems there.
I watched both towers slam into Church Street after those nice Islamic fellows murdered Flight Attendants by slashing their throats on the planes that slammed into 1 & 2 WTC.

They really love us, they show it all the time. 2 weeks ago when they burned the bodies of Americans and dragged the parts in the street is a show of affection for Americans.