Good grief are you always this dishonest? I didn't contest your assertion that one group was the dominant influence behind another. I contested that your use of the word "front" which implies secrecy and disreputable actions.

Clearly there is nothing secret going on and I have repeatedly (this is the FIFTH time now) asked you to point out any example of disreputable behaviour or of ANSWER supporting the things you claim they do. Perhaps you went to the George Bush school of evidence?

What you are doing here is saying that because you don't like some of the 'off-topic' opinions held by some of the people involved in ANSWER that you won't support ANSWER. That's fine but quit this ridiculous conspiricy theory stuff.

When one group dominates and controls a group, that's the definition of a front group.

If the Nazi Party or the KKK controlled a so-called coalition, would you think the involvement of that group was irrelevant? Why is the involvement of the equivalent of Balkan Holocaust deniers -- the WWP denies any mass killings by the Serbs -- in the antiwar movement any less relevant?

David Byron says: "Clearly there is nothing secret going on and I have repeatedly asked you to point out any example of disreputable behaviour or of ANSWER supporting the things you claim they do."

Nathan's point is that ANSWER is controlled by the World Workers Party and all the groups which make up the ANSWER coalition are also controlled or allied to the WWP. Nathan does not approve of the actions of the WWP (which, in effect, _is_ ANSWER) regardless of the good things ANSWER is doing to protest the war.

I don't think he's suggesting not attending ANSWER events, but instead that people who DO attend are aware of who ANSWER is controlled by and what their aims are.

Not understanding who ANSWER is plays into the hands of people like Christopher Hitchens, who denounce the whole anti-war movement as controlled by a left wing fringe ("100,000 communists march on Washington!"). The anti-war movement should not be dismissed, so we have to understand what's happening.

I responded (rather unkindly) here:
http://www.nowarblog.org/archives/000554.html

I am really pissed off with this attack on the antwar movement by people who claim to be against the war.

"Clearly there is nothing secret going on and I have repeatedly (this is the FIFTH time now) asked you to point out any example of disreputable behaviour or of ANSWER supporting the things you claim they do."

"I am really pissed off with this attack on the antwar movement by people who claim to be against the war."

What does one have to do to be "disreputable" in David Bryon's book? Support for the bloody represssion of pro-democracy Chinese students and workers at Tianamen Square doesn't count? Playing ideological footsie with likes of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il doesn't rate? And as for the secrecy bit, does he doubt for a moment that the great mass of the people who will turn out tomorrow, and have turned out for similar ANSWER/IAC/WWP run rallies, have not a clue that the people on the stage running the show are warm admirers of mass murderers, so long as they are anti-American?

Now if the anti-war movement were ANSWER/IAC/WWP, we would indeed be in a sorry state of affairs, because we could not give expression to our opposition to the war without climbing into bed with folks who have covered themselves, from head to toe, with the blood of people who have been murdered fighting for their democratic rights, and we would only have the option of expressing that opposition in a forum which would not also allow us to express our opposition to the murderous regime of Saddam Hussein. Luckily for us, if not for Bryon's argument, there are all sorts of avenues through which one can express one's opposition without climbing into the bed of the WWP/IAC/ANSWER.

It remains a serious problem for the anti-war movement, however, that those of us who will not embrace the bizarre Trotskyist morphed into Stalinist ideology of the WWP/IAC/ANSWER have not taken the steps necessary to place them in the marginal role a sect of few score people deserves, and that they continue to manipulate the movement from its center.

We, Lloyd Daniels Development Group, Inc. (LDG), Hargrove Engineering (Hargrove), Lloyds General & Electrical Contractors (Lloyds) and Cincinnati Change (CC), believe that a commitment to post-WWII-style nation-building in Iraq--is terrific news for people who care about human rights, freedom, and democracy.

It represents an enormous moral victory for those who have long argued that Americas support for "friendly" dictators around the world was immoral.

We in America must face up to the fact that we are at war with a large and growing fascist movement, one which only America can stand up to. One that cares not to feed and clothe people so that they develop into doctors and engineers, but, one that has become a movement, which draws its troops from the slums and institutions that we have in the past turned a blind eye to.

Many think that the War on Iraq will make it clear to our friends and enemies in the Middle East and elsewhere that we mean business. This lesson will be only heard if we help these very same people we are saying we are coming to free. We can and must provide them a better life for their children and their children's children. One in which we all can, if we choose to, sit down at the table and eat of its harvest. One where the lowest common denominator is based on American principles.

I am glad to see a Republican administration recognizing that support for dictators in Third World countries is a losing proposition. - Wanda Lloyd Daniels, the (1995) Interim Midwest Coordinator for the Draft Colin Powell for President Initiative. and President of Lloyds General & Electrical Contractors, Inc. and Chairwoman of Cincinnati Change, a not for profit enterprise.

We believe that fascism is a global problem, not just an regional problem. To stop it, we are going to have to do more than waging war against a militant, deadly religious ideology. Simultaneously, we will have to help build nations that are based on our ideals of American Constitutional. Furthermore, we have to make a heavy investment in the mass of people in these nations.

We, the above, have committed ourselves to do this through an state of Ohio organization that is an African American led Commercial Faith Based Alliance called Global Change.

Nathan this is a great guide to 'front groups.'

On the other hand people are missing David's point.

"Support for the bloody represssion of pro-democracy Chinese students and workers at Tianamen Square doesn't count? Playing ideological footsie with likes of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il doesn't rate?"

Although these acts and supporting them, or denying them, maybe a problem, the fact is that the WWP is up-front more or less with their position. Their position is wrong, and damaging but the fact that they are not hiding their position or their objectives is honest, and in itself not disreputable. This is the case, even if the things they advocate are disreputable, their manner of supporting them are not, because they honestly say that they are supporting them.

The problem lies in the defintion of a front group. Frankly I agree with Nathan's defintion, but see David's point.

If the WWP was actively supressing their involvement with ANSWER, then it would not be so easy to suss them out, no?

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