An argument for socialism! As good or better than any I have seen so far!

Challenger's reference to Y2K seems to indicate that he is speaking specifically of computer technology as opposed to industrial automation. If so, then he cleary doesn't understand the role of computers in corporations. While new computer systems are regularly cost justified in terms of reducing expenses (i.e., labor costs ... they are more tangible), in twenty years of implementing such systems, I have never seen a single job eliminated by a new computer system. Quite the opposite in fact, especially on larger installations. Salaries tend to go up as jobs become more knowledge-based, and often staff is added simply to manage the new technology.

This of course sounds like a contradiction (labor is more expensive so efficiency falls), but it is not. Where Challenger errs is in his implicit assumption that the pre-technology operation was already doing everything they needed and wanted to do, but this is hardly ever the case. Much that could have been done simply wasn't because of limited staff and high complexity. What technology does in these cases is to bring that complexity more in reach of lesser-skilled labor, and this provides a whole host of new opportunities to the corporation. Orders are filled faster. Complaints are more quickly resolved. New products and variations on old products are easier to introduce. Management never gets to see all those savings that were promised up front, but what they do get to see is something they like much better: profitable expansion.

Of course, under this view, all that's left is Roach's view; that new jobs are being exported rather than created at home. While this makes for a better bottom line in the short run, it is quite unsustainable. Eventually, you run out of customers to buy your products.

Corporate america is creating hundreds of thousands of jobs, in India, Russia, and China. The conservative is ignoring this budding catastrophe in American employment(except for Lou Dobbs).

is it possible that low-productivity jobs are being shipped overseas first, thus skewing american productivity numbers higher?

How come every state with socialist leanings(England, France, Germany) have higher unemployment, lower per capita GDP, and higher tax rates but lower per capita revenue than the US? The common example, Sweden, is a poor one - their debt rato is absolutely horrendous, far worse than the US. One of their own economists is quoted: "We've mortaged our future."

This is about labor becoming global capital, able to between markets more readily. India and China, emerging economic powers, will continue to rise economically while the US will decline IF things remain as they are. The way the US will stay ahead of that curve is the same way we always have - continued innovation. It's no suprise that the two strongest economies in the world, Japan and the US, have the highest R&D budgets as a percentage of GDP (roughly 6-7%), while the European powers are somewhere around 1-2%. Socialism stifles innovation, guaranteeing economic decline.

Domick-- you can ignore my posts on Sweden, but they do well for themselves. As for other countries like France and Germany, their median wages and benefits are HIGHER than in the United States on an hourly basis.

This is a study from the mid-90s, but it shows that total pay and benefits for most European countries are higher than in the US.

The only reason Americans make more is that they have to work longer hours and get fewer vacations-- hardly a testament to efficiency and reward.

As for R&D, those numbers are pretty messed up, since they often miss the shopfloor innovation in favor of lab innovation.

You hear on the television through the ruling classes' media propaganda: Economy is getting much better(Lie 1), The war is doing great, that is the large corporations that continue to finance George Bush's IMPERIALISTIC goals of making Iraq an American "Colonial" state are coming to a complete REALITY. The two party system in this country is in crisis because they are too stupid enough to understand that the roots of the problems facing the MAJORITY of Americans and not the 5 percent who run this country over all of us are the rotting characteristics of capitalism which does not work for the majority. The US Gov't under the lead of the Republican "Fascist" dictatorship of George Bush is slowly but surely leading this country to a huge crisis. The old phrase hits home once again: IF YOU THINK THE SYSTEM IS WORKING, ASK SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES IT ISN'T. Capitalism is a failed system, as it only favors the RICH and the Mighty corporations that help it. For the rest of the working class, Middle class American people(The majority!!).. Capitalism believes in: PROFITS BEFORE PEOPLE.. If the US is truly a democratic republic, which it isn't by a long shot, then PEOPLE BEFORE PROFITS should hit home real quick.. Millions unemployed and a STALINIST style of state-capitalist corporatism are dictating to all of us through the LIES of CNN, Fox News, etc.. that things are getting better! I tend to think differently...

ITS TIME FOR AMERICANS and the rest of Humanity to DEMOCRATICALY make decisions for all people, rather than for corporate bucks(profits!)..

PEOPLE BEFORE PROFITS!

The alternative to capitalism --> a socialist society where everything is democraticaly made FOR THE PEOPLE, AND BY THE PEOPLE... and an END TO CORPORATE GREED(ENRON, MICROSOFT, NEXTEL.. etc... ) Corporate America and its Cronies are KILLING our democracy! Public schools being PRIVITIZED so that corporations can make capital off of them, Healthcare for virtually NO one in the majority because its so freaking high!(Capitalism cares only for the FILTHY RICH and those who EXPLOIT THE masses).

Enough said! I have said what I have to to those who are ENSLAVING the majority through CORPORATE OLIGARCHY.

You hear on the television through the ruling classes' media propaganda: Economy is getting much better(Lie 1), The war is doing great, that is the large corporations that continue to finance George Bush's IMPERIALISTIC goals of making Iraq an American "Colonial" state are coming to a complete REALITY. The two party system in this country is in crisis because they are too stupid enough to understand that the roots of the problems facing the MAJORITY of Americans and not the 5 percent who run this country over all of us are the rotting characteristics of capitalism which does not work for the majority. The US Gov't under the lead of the Republican "Fascist" dictatorship of George Bush is slowly but surely leading this country to a huge crisis. The old phrase hits home once again: IF YOU THINK THE SYSTEM IS WORKING, ASK SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES IT ISN'T. Capitalism is a failed system, as it only favors the RICH and the Mighty corporations that help it. For the rest of the working class, Middle class American people(The majority!!).. Capitalism believes in: PROFITS BEFORE PEOPLE.. If the US is truly a democratic republic, which it isn't by a long shot, then PEOPLE BEFORE PROFITS should hit home real quick.. Millions unemployed and a STALINIST style of state-capitalist corporatism are dictating to all of us through the LIES of CNN, Fox News, etc.. that things are getting better! I tend to think differently...

ITS TIME FOR AMERICANS and the rest of Humanity to DEMOCRATICALY make decisions for all people, rather than for corporate bucks(profits!)..

PEOPLE BEFORE PROFITS!

The alternative to capitalism --> a socialist society where everything is democraticaly made FOR THE PEOPLE, AND BY THE PEOPLE... and an END TO CORPORATE GREED(ENRON, MICROSOFT, NEXTEL.. etc... ) Corporate America and its Cronies are KILLING our democracy! Public schools being PRIVITIZED so that corporations can make capital off of them, Healthcare for virtually NO one in the majority because its so freaking high!(Capitalism cares only for the FILTHY RICH and those who EXPLOIT THE masses).

Enough said! I have said what I have to to those who are ENSLAVING the majority through CORPORATE OLIGARCHY.

Even a philosopher gets upset with a toothache.

Suits and religions rupture if you force them on.

Don't give up, you are close.