"Bush's proposal is just the latest corporate assault using immigration policy to accomplish that rightwing goal."

Sheer ideological nonsense. If that were Dean's proposal, you'd be praising it as "bold and courageous." I saw the CNN poll. About 64 percent opposed to the proposal, 23 percent for. Any bets on how many of that 64 percent are to the right of Bush, and how many are to the left?

Conservatives hate it because it rewards illegal activity, and the hell with the fact that there are millions here who we can't pretend aren't around. Liberals hate it because it threatens to steal an issue from them, and they resent not having had the chance to do it themselves. That, in my view, is what's going on.

The system is broken. It needs to be changed. But change is going to be incremental, because of the large "no foreigners need apply" crowd. This is a step in the right direction. It's a good thing.

"This is a step in the right direction. It's a good thing."

No you are full of crap. This proposal will absolutely be used to undermine worker protections for EVERY worker in America. If shrub were serious he would have structured the proposal to allow these immigrants a real chance at citizenship, which he didn't do.

Any immigrant has a chance at citizenship. All they have to do is prepare for it. Tens of thousands of immigrants become citizens of this country every year.

Citizenship is not an affirmative action program. It is not a gift.

Your problem is that you don't accept progress, which often comes in small steps. Instead, you insist on an impossible absolutism which has no chance of being adopted.

My parents are lifelong Democrats, children of the Depression. They hate George Bush. They also want no part of legalizing these people in any way, shape, manner or form, no matter what Richard Gephardt or Howard Dean say. They have a lot of company. Compared to them, I'm a screaming liberal.

I doubt very much that any action will be taken on Bush's proposal before the election. Congress is not dumb. The Democratic nominee, however, will be free to advocate the sweeping "road to citizenship" that you prefer. I'll bet he doesn't.

Michael Brown - "If that were Dean's proposal..."

Nice use of the classic straw man. It ISN'T Deans proposal, is it?

And - "Conservatives hate it because it rewards illegal activity..."

Conservative thinking has nothing to do with anything from this White House, they are being driven by corporate agenda.

Their actions speak louder than their words. Conservatives should hate this administration because their ideals are being sold out at every non-trivial opportunity, just like every other populist sounding proposal from this administration ends up 180 degrees reversed from what was presented, once the consequences of the actual implementation are seen.

So a better postulate would be: illegal-alien-hiring Walmart loves this, because now they have the power of law saying they can intimidate the workers they "sponsor". How easy it will be to revoke the sponsorship of any worker who won't accept corporate abuse, (which Walwart would NEVER do, right?)

At least before, there was some outrage that Walmart was exploiting their indentured servants. Now it'll just be "well, the law says they can".

Nathan Newman is right: "The bottom line is that citizenship for undocumented immigrants is THE ONLY way to protect the rights of all American workers

This may split the Republican party badly between the realists and the Buchanan nativists, if it's really presented to Congress. I suspect it won't be seriously brought up there; it's merely a Rovian pander to the Hispanic vote.

Actually, citizenship is pretty much limited to those who are legal permanent residents, and the only chance of becoming an LPR that most immigrants have is to marry a citizen. Some commentors here might want to learn something about immigration law.

Extreme difficulty in gaining citizenship. Al-Muhajabah sees the problem exactly.

Bush's proposal does nothing. If the goal is to really get these illegal aliens to become contributing members of the economy, a real solution would include changing laws so they can more easily acquire full citizenship.

Oracle Database Administrator - $35,000 per year. If no Americans take it we can get a temporary for 3 years from India and renew them for another 3, then get another when that runs out.

But American DBAs will take it because it's still slightly better pay than any other job. This would put a lot of professional salaries in direct competition with the entire world's professional labor pool. Corporations would just love that.

As far as I can tell, this benefits illegal workers negligebly--but it's a massive windfall for business. Now they can legal abuse all the workers they've had to illegally abuse for decades. The INS just won't get in the way now.

"illegal-alien-hiring Walmart loves this, because now they have the power of law saying they can intimidate the workers they "sponsor". How easy it will be to revoke the sponsorship of any worker who won't accept corporate abuse, (which Walwart would NEVER do, right?)"

What a cesspool of ignorance! Legal status means they will have far more protection. They will be able to file complaints without fear. They'll be able to ask for higher wages. They'll have to be paid the minimum wage and will qualify for many benefits currently denied them because of their illegal status.

If the Bush proposal passes, it will make life in this country better for millions of illegals. The fact that the nuts on the right hate it and you nuts on the left hate it is indicative of how well it's crafted.

What bugs you the most, though, is that if it passes into law, it will have been the Republicans who made life better for so many. You would rather let them continue to suffer, just so you can avoid something so ideologically galling.

Michael Brown - "They will be able to file complaints without fear."

You must not have any experience with labor negotiations. American workers trying to organize at Walmart have legal protection against unfair labor practices. This never stopped Walmart from initmidating, abusing, and firing organizers at will, without the government taking any actions to protect the workers.

Did you hear the one about Walmart forcing its workers to work unpaid overtime? Lot of good legal protections have done them.

All Walmart would have to do to get rid of a sponsored alien who complained about corporate abuse is say "we no longer have a position for employee X, so we regretfully will have to retract our sponsorship", and the government, under the auspices of this proposed law, would ship their ass out of the country.

Prefectly legal, nearly impossible to prove ulterior motives. The law would be a license to blackmail.

If your goal is to make life better for these people, make it easier for them to become full citizens.

Tom writes, "All Walmart would have to do to get rid of a sponsored alien who complained about corporate abuse is say "we no longer have a position for employee X, so we regretfully will have to retract our sponsorship."

Since no legislation has been crafted, let alone passed, how can you know that's the way it will be?

By the way, since these poor people are so exploited, why are millions of them in this country? I guess they're sorta like you guys ... life in America just sucks, but that damned Iron Curtain gets in their way.

They're in this country because we own so much of the world's wealth. The vast majority would almost certainly prefer not to choose between living in their home country with their family and making a living. Why shouldn't they get to do both? US foreign policy has made this situation worse, not better. Supporting dictators like Duvallier, Somosa, Rios-Montt et. al. made life unlivable in many nearby nations and forced many to leave their homes involuntarily.

The best way to protect your family's jobs is to eliminate the comparitive advantage to their bosses in replacing them with other workers, American or Mexican, in the US or China. Creating sub-classes of workers with even fewer rights than US citizens, or who can work legally at a lower wage (like in some Welfare to Work programs or in prison industries) helps no one except the bosses who get to pocket the profits. Labor used to want to eliminate this competition by locking our borders to keep foreign workers out. Now, it's clear that the best strategy is to lift the fortunes of all workers so that we can all tell the bosses to get lost together. Extending full citizenship and demanding full labor rights in trade deals are essential to meet this goal

NN,
This is totally off point. But you seem to know a lot more about economics than I do. Everybody seems to have missed the story about the IMF and the National debt. Do you have any thoughts about it. Oh and on point, have we all forgotten about our National lady in the harbor? Do most Americans think she was kidding about the huddled masses?

Joe

You know, as I travel through the blogosphere, I find that a distressingly large number of liberals seem incapable of seeing their opponents positions as based on anything other than base motives. Immigration reform? Must be a roundabout way of screwing workers. Prescription drug entitlements? They just want to bankrupt this system. Tax cuts? Meant to destroy the economy so we have to cut spending. Opposition to abortion? Because they hate women. Opposition to affirmative action? They hate minorities. Gay marriage? Well duh!

This indicates to me that your average liberal has little to no idea how your average conservative actually thinks.

Michael B, how do we know its such a good proposal if the law "isn't even drafted yet"? Politicians (whatever their ideology mind you, Bill Clinton please stand up) have a habit of announcing grand plans that sound great at first glance, but once the fine print gets thrown in, well...
And I second the point about the difference between "legal" and "possible" vis a vis grievances. If they enforce labor rightS for immigrant workers the way they enforce them for native-born workers, the immigrants are screwed. Consult Newman's archives for more or follow some of the labor links, for an education.
Josiah, what is an "average conservative" when its at home? For that matter what's an "average liberal"? Take down these straw men, they're a fire hazard.

You know, as I sit on my ass browsing websites, I find that a distressingly large number of conservatives seem incapable of seeing their opponents positions as based on anything other than base motives. Labor rights? Must be a roundabout way of screwing employers. Health care reform? They just want socialism. Progressive taxes? Elitist. Support for abortion? Because they hate babies. Affirmative action? They hate whites. Gay marriage? Well duh!

This indicates to me that your average liberal has little to no idea how your average conservative actually thinks.

Josiah's got a point, I think it is a stupid point but it is a point--if it is a Bush proposal then I assume the worst until proven otherwise. IMO the track record is not good (e.g. No Child Left, Healthy Forests). Prescription drug benefit is an interesting case in point, Nathan was in favor, using the something better than nothing reasoning IIRC, I thought it looked bad because of too many giveaways to big pharmaceutical interests. Regarding the immigration 'ploy' I would contrast the Bush approach to the Dems, listening to the most recent debate held on NPR, they all backed a bill which would allow illegals to earn citizenship, politically I doubt that this is a winner, but I agree with it, although I doubt it will deter continued illegal immigration, it is the right thing to do. I work in ag and I see a lot of illegals, many being taken advantage of, the system we have is not working well and it does need improvement, but from what I have seen from this administration I treat any proposal they put forward as a Trojan Horse until I am convinced that it is a good idea. I am open to argument but I do not accept proclamations.

George Bush is making a very wrong decision. He is not doing anything for his own country, now he wants to go help someone else's. What kind of President is that. Bush does not make very wise choices. He is just using our money "Including babyboomers" for his own selfish ways, and to me I do not think that it's fair. Bush needs to wake up and smell the dam coffee and realize that our country our fighting for jobs to! He should be helping our country with jobs. All I have to say is that he does not need to run for office anymore because he is not a very bright person, and he does not know what the hell he is doing!

George Bush is making a very wrong decision. He is not doing anything for his own country, now he wants to go help someone else's. What kind of President is that. Bush does not make very wise choices. He is just using our money "Including babyboomers" for his own selfish ways, and to me I do not think that it's fair. Bush needs to wake up and smell the dam coffee and realize that our country our fighting for jobs to! He should be helping our country with jobs. All I have to say is that he does not need to run for office anymore because he is not a very bright person, and he does not know what the hell he is doing!

I think Bush intends to propose something that Looks Good but virtually presents no actual benefit to illegal immigrants. He just wants to document them, make them pay taxes while providing them with no real future to become a US. resident or citizen. That sounds pretty much like exploiting them and giving nothing in return.