All true, and the point of all of this is to scare white Democrats into not nominating Latinos for higher office, while the Republicans get ready to roll out people like Condi Rice as candidates for California governor. The Republicans know that Democrats will not resort to racial smear campaigns against Republican candidates of color, and for once, I'm OK with the Dems not fighting fire with fire.

This argument rests on an idea that the right has spent significant effort trying to infiltrate into the American consciousness: that the nationalism and solidarity of the oppressed and the minority is morally equivalent to the nationalism and solidarity of the oppressor and the majority. This idea is a keystone of the far (and not so far) right and far left argument that identification with an in-group is always an obstacle to identification with a larger group and never a path towards it. I think I stand with the majority of Americans in maintaining unequivocally and without contradiction both that blind nationalism, uncompromising sectarianism, and subtle racism pose and have historically been dangerous threats to the construction of a human community and that identification with a small group - be it a neighborhood or one of Anderson's "Imagined Communities" - can serve both the advancement of marginalized groups and the building of human empathy. But an intentionally divisive fringe, with much of the mainstream media in tow, is steadilly working to build in the minds of Americans a conception of the NAACP as the KKK. This, ironically, echoes the apologia of the hate groups themselves: " [Oppressed minority] has their organizations looking out for their interests, so shouldn't [majority] have one looking out for ours?"

You Wrote: “The only difference between MEChA-style ethnic nationalism and most historic white ethnic groups, is that the latinos have a clearer grievance by historical standards.”

How does any historical form white racism (nationalism) justify racism by other ethnic groups? The German Nazis justified their racism on the “clearer grievance” based on the oppressive Treaty of Versailles. So grievances cannot justify racist motives.

You Wrote “Sorry-- the only thing that looks like Nazism is the "white mans burden" conceit of America backed by military invasion that allowed it to attack Mexico and annex its land to the United States.”

Wow that’s racist and what ignorance! First of all Mexico attacked the United States and this is well documented history. A quick elementary history review:

Mexico won it’s independence from Spain and wrote new constitution following in the United States footsteps. Shortly thereafter a man named Santa Anna tears up the Mexican constitution and takes on the powers of a dictator over Mexico. He then proceeds to harass the Mexican people living in the Texas territory and a civil war breaks out in Mexico. At the conclusion of the war the new Republic of Texas is born. This new nation having the same sovereign independence that Mexico just claimed from Spain decides to petition for statehood in the United States. The new nation is reluctantly admitted as a state and placed under the legal protection of all sovereign states. Santa Anna then declares war on the United States and attacks. The United States in turn declares war on Mexico and the rest is history.

I’m sorry to inform this board that racism is not only a white person’s disease it is found all over the world in quite equal proportions. Today we need to work together and stop dividing along racial lines. From what I can see the evil white people seem more willing to do this than ever before so why alienate them? Why does the left seem so intent on attacking whites for political gain? It's so see-thru and racist it makes me sick.

Mike- When you tell just a ridiculous version of history, it's hard to take you seriously. President Polk ran on a platform of annexing California. That was in 1844 BEFORE we even get to any disputes on what border conflicts were used to justify the Mexican-American war. Like Bush's Yellowcake lies or the Gulf of Tonkin, there are always "reasons" used to justify aggressive military action by the United States.

But no one has to take such things seriously or those who repeat them.

I will admit my one paragraph explanation of a war that was twenty years in the making is over simplistic. However, by every historical account is was Santa Anna’s troops that drew first blood and started the war by attacking a small United States Calvary attachment. The United States has never and will never allow such an attack go unanswered as far as I know.

At the conclusion of the war not a single Mexican land owner was stripped of their land and all previous land ownership claims were protected by the United States. The same Mexican people continued to live in the territories just as they still do today. The only one disenfranchised by the whole thing was a dictator named Santa Anna that couldn’t have cared less about the Mexican people living in these regions.

The claim that Santa Anna was some kind of peace loving guy that just couldn’t hold back this United States (white) aggression is just bogus. The dictator Santa Anna and his aggression was in fact is the primary trigger for the whole bloody and unnecessary war.

In the end only a dictator was disenfranchised and no Mexican was ever stripped of their land and here is the proof.

ARTICLE VIII The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo

Mexicans now established in territories previously belonging to Mexico, and which remain for the future within the limits of the United States, as defined by the present treaty, shall be free to continue where they now reside, or to remove at any time to the Mexican Republic, retaining the property which they possess in the said territories, or disposing thereof, and removing the proceeds wherever they please, without their being subjected, on this account, to any contribution, tax, or charge whatever. Those who shall prefer to remain in the said territories may either retain the title and rights of Mexican citizens, or acquire those of citizens of the United States. But they shall be under the obligation to make their election within one year from the date of the exchange of ratifications of this treaty; and those who shall remain in the said territories after the expiration of that year, without having declared their intention to retain the character of Mexicans, shall be considered to have elected to become citizens of the United States. In the said territories, property of every kind, now belonging to Mexicans not established there, shall be inviolably respected. The present owners, the heirs of these, and all Mexicans who may hereafter acquire said property by contract, shall enjoy with respect to it guarantees equally ample as if the same belonged to citizens of the United States.

You jump from the issue of whether latinos have the right to express their nationalism and historic resentment at losing previous sovereignty to an ode to protection of Mexican landowners-- hardly the most salient issue for most modern mechistas who are often the children of immigrants who had no land.

I'm actually no big fan of nationalism in general-- I see no big need to choose between the slave-loving racist President Polk and the machismo of Santa Ana. I actually have little particular truck with such nationalisms- whether among my Jewish friends who defend Sharon's brutalities, those who defend America right or wrong, or those who imagine a utopia if Santa Ana had won. But the end result was the loss of sovereignty of latinos in California and almost a century of discrimination in favor of whites.

And they have much right to their nationalism as anyone else without being called Nazis-- it's the double standard in praise of some nationalisms that I object to in these attacks on MEChA.

First I don’t believe that MEChA = Nazi by any means. However, racism in any form has the potential to turn as ugly as Nazism given the right conditions in combination with the right leader.

I have no problem with MEChA or even the Nazis having the right to their opinions and beliefs, that‘s America. I just believe that they are dead wrong in those beliefs and I don‘t mind saying so.

History repeats itself and whenever you have any group claiming they have some greater right exist hate and violence will follow. And honestly what’s the difference between MEChA believing they have some mystical claim to parts of North American for Mexico and the Nazi Party claiming parts of Europe that once belonged to Germans? I see no difference.

Far as I know Mexico has no more of a claim in the United States than England has in New York or Spain has in Mexico so the whole MEChA claim is absurd at best.

And to wrap things up I don’t believe Cruz Bustamante is a racist and is likely a fair minded guy. However, years ago he did have ties to a well know racist organization, regardless of whatever justification their may be for such racism, and he should explain himself to Californians that need someone who will represent more than the just “bronze” people.

A question, Nathan - what do you think of the Southern Poverty Law Center's classification of the Black Panthers, Nation of Islam, and other such black separatist groups as hate groups? Are they wrong in doing so?

There is a wide gulf in disapproving of the MEChA = Nazi metaphor and actually condoning the beliefs of MEChA. The problem is that you make moral equivications and ill-informed comments that show that you're not willing to even look into the deeper issues here.

Take this comment:
"Yeah, let's do that substitution. Now what does "mestizo" mean? To take a basic definition:

a person of mixed racial ancestry (especially mixed European and Native American ancestry)
So what this statement says is that celebration of race mixing is the same as racial purity."

On the surface, it sounds clearcut, right? Unfortunately, the term mestizo has deep meanings in Mexican history - most notably the fact that it was the offical name during Spanish rule of people of Spanish and Indian desent - the exact group who would eventually become the core racial group of Mexico. To myself, the use of "mestizo" is not a celebration of racial mixing, but a denotation of a specific racial group which happens to have its origin in racial mixing. In addition, there are much more disturbing things that appear in MEChA documents, such as the use of the term "la raza" (the race) as a description of Chicanos, which you ignore.

Add to this comments made publically by leaders of MEChA chapters and the fact that notable ex-mechaistas created hate groups (such as Voz de Aztlan) centered around a Chicanocentric viewpoint, and there is enough to make people suspicious. Even the SPLC has decided to investigate MEChA because of concerns raised.

In fact, I think the SPLC makes the point best in their section regarding black separatists:
"Although the Southern Poverty Law Center recognizes that much black racism in America is, at least in part, a response to centuries of white racism, it believes racism must be exposed in all its forms. White groups espousing beliefs similar to Black Separatists would be considered clearly racist. The same criterion should be applied to all groups regardless of their color."

Sounds logical to me.

If he had just distanced himself from MEChA, it would've been accepted. If he had not continued appearing with them it might be forgotten. If he hadn't used the "N-word" in a speech he might have avoided the racism charge.

But all these acts do form the picture of an individual's ideas. Bustamante has racist tendencies and the voters should be aware of it.

AngelKnight-- the Southern Poverty Law Center does not describe the "Black Panthers" as a hate group -- since for one thing it no longer exists-- but is talking about a new group called the New Black Panther Party which is violent and racist, much as the Nation of Islam has been.

As for MEChA, I worked with them in coalitions of whites, blacks, asians and so on and they were and are always respectful of other groups and nationalities. There is nothing "hate group" or even separatist about them. Yeah, they evoke the nationalism of Atzlan but in practice that has as much meaning as the Irish evoking Ireland in trolling for votes on election day.

So why should Bustamante repudiate MEChA? Should every politician have to repudiate St. Patricks Day and associated Irish groups, many of which BTW have been active funders of the IRA. Yet you don't see conservatives playing these kinds of games around "repudication" there.

The difference? A racist double standard around ethnic politics.

Nathan,

You said, "Let's be straight. The United States controls California because of two things-- we committed genocide against Native Americans and we conducted a racist military expansion into what had been Mexican-controlled territory."

I suppose we can substitute "the USA" for "California" and "Mexican-controlled territory". We came, we saw, we conqered - get over it, already.

Advocacy of the restoration of California to Mexico is irredentism, a right-wing romantic nationalism similar to the desire of Serbs to regain Kosovo or Jews to control Hebron because of a "historic right" that trumps the desire of the people who actually live there.

If Bustamante ever held those views, I would hope he has outgrown them.

Mecha is not a racist organization, at least not 30 years ago when Bustamante was a member. Furthermore, would it be allowed on hundreds of college campuses across the country if it were a radical racist organization? I doubt it.

Bustamante must have a good lead, otherwise they wouldn't be grasping at straws. He's outlined a plan to reduce the defict and to limit caps on gas prices, but nobody wants to talk about that.

They can't attack his record at all.

Well, Amy, I beg to differ with you. Here's the first paragraph of MEChA's "El Plan De Aztlan".

"In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal "gringo" invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny."

If you need more proof that MEChA is a racist organization just read some of their own documents. While you're at it, check out the "Voz de Aztlan" website. Then come back here and try to make the case that MEChA and other "Aztlan" fanatics aren't operating from a racist, Mexican ultranationalist platform.

BTW, there was no "Mexico" in California until the Spanish imposed its boundaries on the native population through conquest. In other words, there was no "Mexican" presence there originally, only scattered native tribes who do not claim to be "Aztec". Is it right for Mexicans to try to lay claim to land conquered by an oppressor they themselves repudiated? By what right can Mexico claim California, except under the mantle of de facto conquerer? Isn't that like stealing stolen property and then saying it's yours because the thief gave it to you? Try reading into history a little further back than what the MEChA fanatics want you to read. Natives all through the Southwest clashed frequently and violently with Mexicans. It's pretty clear they didn't regard themselves as part of "La Raza".

Roger-- How many times can rightwingers repeat the same decades-old paragraph, quote it out of context, ignore everything MEChA has done and said for decades-- then claim to say it's racist.

The only racism is those attacking MEChA- Roger, you are the racist for using lies to smear a latino candidate just as lies were used to justify war and discrimation against latinos in the southwest beginning in the 19th century.

It's all hypocrisy by people who TODAY oppose anti-discrimination laws and support keeping latinos out of college, then label those fighting for a fair education for latinos as "racist." It's all just Orwellian doublespeak.

Nathan,

Please show me where I lied, first of all, then show me where I tried to "smear" Bustamante (did I even mention him?), and finally, please show me an argument. So far you're only employing the very same strategy you accuse others of using on Bustamente and MEChA. Dispute my facts if you have your own, otherwise, you need to be more careful about "smearing" others who disagree with you.

Roger- Since your posting on this site, you can see I've posted multiple posts on this subject, yet you responded to none of those points.

You're posting on the subject, when the only reason the right is bothering is because of Bustamante-- so the denial that this doesn't involves Bustamante is itself a lie.

You mention Voz de Atzlan, which is not part of MEChA, yet imply that it is -- a lie.

You also imply that MEChA wants to restore California to Mexico-- a lie.

The whole point of "Atzlan" is to conceive of the region as something different from both Mexico and United States colonization. And the idea is about political and cultural self-determination-- nowhere does MEChA advocate violent separatism.

MEChA is a broad-based student club dedicated to increasing latinos in higher education. That is and has been its focus for decades.

If you can cite any evidence otherwise-- other than monotonously quoting a decades old document out of context-- it might be interesting to hear. Otherwise, it's just a lie and smear.

Nathan,

In answer to your latest post to me, please note:

1. My first post was a response to "Amy", not any of your posts.

2. I answered your reply to my post (which was directed to another poster, not yourself) with a challenge to produce a clear and articulate basis for your claims that I lied, smeared Bustamante, and in some way behaved like a racist rightwinger.
You failed to explain yourself on these points.

3. "El Plan De Aztlan" can be viewed on the University of Oregon MEChA Homepage right now, therefore it is a CURRENT, not an outdated (i.e. no longer used) document. It is also mentioned as a motivational document on the UC Berkeley MEChA webpage.

4. All maps of "Aztlan" which I've seen (and I've seen a lot of them) clearly show California and the Southwest U.S. as joined with Mexico, NOT a separate region.

Okay, there's the evidence you asked me to produce. I'm still waiting for you to explain the insults you directed at me in your first post (the one you singled me out in even though I did not address my post to you PERSONALLY)
Please don't jump to another round of "smear" tactics and challenges to produce evidence before you answer my questions. Anything else would, I think, be very cowardly on your part.

Here's some more "evidence" for you, Nate.

Just so you don't accuse me of quoting "El Plan" out of context again, here's the whole thing (taken directly from the UC Berkely website without any changes). Don't complain about the length, because you "asked for it". Also, note the part about "self defense" against the oppressor. I'll bet they're just going to throw flowers around and cry "peace and love" to the "foreign Europeans", right? Also note "northern land of Aztlan". The only thing it's a northern land of is MEXICO, not the U.S.



El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal "gringo" invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlán from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny.

We are free and sovereign to determine those tasks which are justly called for by our house, our land, the sweat of our brows, and by our hearts. Aztlán belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. We do not recognize capricious frontiers on the bronze continent

Brotherhood unites us, and love for our brothers makes us a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner "gabacho" who exploits our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation. We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlán.

Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada.

Program
El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán sets the theme that the Chicanos (La Raza de Bronze) must use their nationalism as the key or common denominator for mass mobilization and organization. Once we are committed to the idea and philosophy of El Plan de Aztlán, we can only conclude that social, economic, cultural, and political independence is the only road to total liberation from oppression, exploitation, and racism. Our struggle then must be for the control of our barrios, campos, pueblos, lands, our economy, our culture, and our political life. El Plan commits all levels of Chicano society - the barrio, the campo, the ranchero, the writer, the teacher, the worker, the professional - to La Causa.

Nationalism
Nationalism as the key to organization transcends all religious, political, class, and economic factions or boundaries. Nationalism is the common denominator that all members of La Raza can agree upon.

Organizational Goals
UNITY in the thinking of our people concerning the barrios, the pueblo, the campo, the land, the poor, the middle class, the professional-all committed to the liberation of La Raza.

ECONOMY: economic control of our lives and our communities can only come about by driving the exploiter out of our communities, our pueblos, and our lands and by controlling and developing our own talents, sweat, and resources. Cultural background and values which ignore materialism and embrace humanism will contribute to the act of cooperative buying and the distribution of resources and production to sustain an economic base for healthy growth and development Lands rightfully ours will be fought for and defended. Land and realty ownership will be acquired by the community for the people's welfare. Economic ties of responsibility must be secured by nationalism and the Chicano defense units.

EDUCATION must be relative to our people, i.e., history, culture, bilingual education, contributions, etc. Community control of our schools, our teachers, our administrators, our counselors, and our programs.

INSTITUTIONS shall serve our people by providing the service necessary for a full life and their welfare on the basis of restitution, not handouts or beggar's crumbs. Restitution for past economic slavery, political exploitation, ethnic and cultural psychological destruction and denial of civil and human rights. Institutions in our community which do not serve the people have no place in the community. The institutions belong to the people.

SELF-DEFENSE of the community must rely on the combined strength of the people. The front line defense will come from the barrios, the campos, the pueblos, and the ranchitos. Their involvement as protectors of their people will be given respect and dignity. They in turn offer their responsibility and their lives for their people. Those who place themselves in the front ranks for their people do so out of love and carnalismo. Those institutions which are fattened by our brothers to provide employment and political pork barrels for the gringo will do so only as acts of liberation and for La Causa. For the very young there will no longer be acts of juvenile delinquency, but revolutionary acts.

CULTURAL values of our people strengthen our identity and the moral backbone of the movement. Our culture unites and educates the family of La Raza towards liberation with one heart and one mind. We must insure that our writers, poets, musicians, and artists produce literature and art that is appealing to our people and relates to our revolutionary culture. Our cultural values of life, family, and home will serve as a powerful weapon to defeat the gringo dollar value system and encourage the process of love and brotherhood.

POLITICAL LIBERATION can only come through indepen-dent action on our part, since the two-party system is the same animal with two heads that feed from the same trough. Where we are a majority, we will control; where we are a minority, we will represent a pressure group; nationally, we will represent one party: La Familia de La Raza!

Action
Awareness and distribution of El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán. Presented at every meeting, demonstration, confrontation, courthouse, institution, administration, church, school, tree, building, car, and every place of human existence.

September 16, on the birthdate of Mexican Independence, a national walk-out by all Chicanos of all colleges and schools to be sustained until the complete revision of the educational system: its policy makers, administration, its curriculum, and its personnel to meet the needs of our community.

Self-Defense against the occupying forces of the oppressors at every school, every available man, woman, and child.

Community nationalization and organization of all Chicanos: El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán.

Economic program to drive the exploiter out of our community and a welding together of our people's combined resources to control their own production through cooperative effort.

Creation of an independent local, regional, and national political party.

A nation autonomous and free - culturally, socially, economically, and politically- will make its own decisions on the usage of our lands, the taxation of our goods, the utilization of our bodies for war, the determination of justice (reward and punishment), and the profit of our sweat.

El Plan de Aztlán is the plan of liberation!

And where in that whole piece does it talk about taking up military arms to secede?

Nowhere.

What is hilarious is that all these rightwingers, who defend "states rights" and express nostalgia for the Southern Confederate states, are horrified at a group expressing a desire for regional or community autonomy.

The hypocrisy just piles up.

The only person piling up hypocrisy in here is you, Nathan. Of course MEChA doesn't say get out your guns and kill white people (or non "bronze people", or "Foreign Europeans") if they interfere with us - duuuuuuuuuh! That would be a terrorist threat and they know it. So they couch their language in more subtle wording. Unfortunately, not everybody is so stupid that they can't figure out the underlying ideas.

You know full well that if the federal government deployed armed troops to enforce U.S. laws on an "Aztlan" break away nation, the word "self defense" is meaningless if it's not backed up with weapons and the willingness to use them. Why use the term "self defense" if there's no expectation of an attack? You are seriously delusional if you can't understand the full meaning of these terms as stated in "El Plan" without having it spelled out in more obvious language. Regardless, the point is to create a separate nation from the United States called "Aztlan". Therefore, no official (such as Bustamante) desiring to run for a U.S. GOVERNMENT leadership position should hesitate to disavow any loyalty to an organization espousing an ANTI U.S. GOVERNMENT movement.

...Still waiting for you to answer my first reply to you like an honest man (i.e. clear reasons for insulting another poster that he can stand by).

Now I understand-- this document you quote is the most radical thing MEChA ever wrote-- and it quite different from how most MEChA chapters describe their purpose.

But we are supposed to believe that the moderate statement of purpose listed on each campus website is not their real purpose.

And the non-violent strategies listed in this document you reprint is not their real purpose.

No, the real purpose is violent revolution which you KNOW is the real goal because you have ESP and can guess their intentions.

As for whether any group can advocate secession non-violently? Of course they can. Groups in Puerto Rico do it every day. Native American tribes do it quite often.

Of course, you can't even find legislation sponsored by any MEChA member to have states secede from the US. THere has been no violent action in support of that goal.

So you have no evidence that any such secession activity has ever happened. Sure it's been thrown around rhetorically at points, but so frigging what. Latinos are pissed off at their historical treatment and it's a way to say, either treat us right or we'll leave. That's in the best tradition of a country founded on "no taxation without representation."

But the bottom-line is that you have ZERO EVIDENCE of any action taken by Bustamante or any other MECHA chapters to pursue secession or anything approaching it.

Since you never mitigated or explained your earlier insults, I won't pull any punches now. I can see that I'm trying to debate with a person who's devoid of any real honor or learning. It's pointless to converse with you as if you were one (so I won't). You're a coward with the brains of a flea and the debating style of a cockroach. Period.

...Hey, at least I thought up something more creative than "You're a radical leftwing racist".

Roger-- you are the guest here and a poor one, so if that is your exit statement, so be it.

The facts remain-- MEChA has never advocated violence and its discussions of "Atlan" have been discussed largely in cultural and economic self-determination terms. You have shown no evidence otherwise than your insults and cites from a decades-old document.

"September 16, on the birthdate of Mexican Independence, a national walk-out by all Chicanos of all colleges and schools to be sustained until the complete revision of the educational system: its policy makers, administration, its curriculum, and its personnel to meet the needs of our community". Is this true? What a load of burro dung Senior! Just WHAT needs arent being met? Geesh, I am ALREADY helping pay 2.2 billion dollars for ILLEGAL ALIEN children to get freebee educations in my state; isnt that ENOUGH? KMY!

R U READIN THE RIGHT El Plan de Aztlán BECUZ THERE IS MANY DIFFERENT ONE OUT THERE AND U HAVE TO MAKE SURE READING THE RIGHT ON